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I have to agree with you, IA. I don't understand the reasoning behind such a major change in a combat system that has been working fairly well. I find it to be quite worrying, that we will not be able to move after using a skill. Another example: the sage skill, Suppress Mind, will become next to useless, if you use it to reduce the target's movement, and then can't move out of the way!

I did not think that clicking "end turn," was all that bothersome, and if another player in a group fight forgot to move or hit end turn--well they could always be reminded in chat. I don't see why we all should be penalized and have to relearn how to fight, for such a trivial matter.

After suffering through many skill changes, and having to relearn how to fight each time, I am not looking forward to having to once again rethink my combat strategies for each and every fight. These changes are becoming rather tiresome at this point.

However, the fact that mobs will be losing their extra skill turns, will be a plus. This I found to be quite tedious, and many times I was totally bored, waiting for a large mob to get through all their extra turns, before it was finally my turn. And increasing the speed that our characters move on the map, will be especially welcome.

I think that fixing some of the many ongoing problems in the game, should be the priority here--instead of turning everything upside down, once again. I would like to see a resolution to the disconnect problems, the freezes and flash problems, that are happening more frequently.

And we desperately need new areas to explore, new quests and an increase in the level cap, sooner rather than later. I am sure I am not the only one who is getting bored with doing the same things over and over again.

I have to agree with you in this; not really a good idea to change the system on this way,
because it's not really connecting the speed of the fight.
The difficult and pretty long fights're not really long about these few extra clicks of the "independent moving skill".
Those have got absolutely other reasons and especially as you said the "hit and run" strategy needs in these hard fights
(like the Rhino groups).

So I don't really see any sense in this change, sure it coud works and probably after a time all of the players used to it,
but I think the "fight system" is absolutely all right in the moment. Sure the sage can be a little bit stronger..and these changes
are really good in these new patch, but I don't really think this a good idea to change on the fight system again.
It's good if the game is improving but I think shoudn't have to make these radical changes in the battle system with every patches.
I'm pretty sure the biggest part of the players woud have to see some new areas and mobs in the moment
instead these new battle system..

+1

I don't know how many people felt the battles so slow...but I think a usual battle's pretty fast in the game except
if you're not trying to solve something very big challenge with a weak character and some boss fights.
But as I said those won't be much faster with these changes either...just maybe more frustrating about the lack of the "hit and run"

If the battle changes are really only to answer the trivial problem of forgetting to click end turn, they are to say the least unnecessary. Reducing opportunities for strategy in movement defeats much of the point in having movement on the battle field. It is not at all clear how any skill will work with "movement built in"; for instance, will warriors become unable to use their throwing axe skill if the mob is the type that follows you around?

Usually the developers act as if the proposed changes are set in stone by the time they announce them in forum. That stone, of course, is subject to change at the next patch. But I heartily agree with those who say we'd much rather have new material than all this tinkering.

I just hope that Patch Information was posted before implementing it, to get some early feedback on it in advance. I really do, because it's a +1 from me on the batttle-ends-after-skill-use-rant.
Did the game designers really think about it there or just tried to give in to some ppl who can't hit an extra button or even SPACE(!) after their turn?

Actually I'm not that much in favor of taking away that foe's extra turn either,...although it's true that it takes some time to skip through all the turns, some fights can get really interesting just and only for this extra-hit reason. When suddenly you thought you are so damn strong, and the mobs just hack your nuts with extra turns. Would make battling just less exciting IMO.

I like how you think about this game as a graphical opus tho, seeing that you are even thinking about color blindness and how to adapt it. That takes time and knowledge, really dig it.

Still, after all you do more harm with a more simple change like taking away the move-after-skill, than doing good with a color-correction.

Sincerely

Yes; it's an other part of the problems what you mentioned if these change will really happen.
Few skill really coud be totally useless or at least much worse than before (like in your example the throwing axe, or the suppress mind in the case of the sage). And this really won't be a so positive effect of the strategy either...that's sure.

Ty for the quick response, Xib.

Tell me... how many minutes of those "couple of hours" dedicated to test this abomination-of-a-patch fighting using a sage class?

And, how many minutes of those "couple of hours" did you spend tackling really hard mobs, such as a couple of levels above your chars? (Yeah, including those lamassus and bloodthirsty rhinos, which are not lvl 25 too, inappropriate labeling, but that's another thread's topic).

I've already said, fighting lesser mobs (where we can dilly dally running in circles before getting bored and finally kill the mob) we won't feel its importance (the ability to move post skill use). We'll still live. We'll still win. The combat won't be "ruined". But, our gaming experience will be. As others have said before, haven't you figured out by now that the game is LIVE. Players expect some measure of stability, not sudden jerky moves. Relearning skills, new combat mechanics are some of those jerky moves. And, this is a MAJOR one.

Granted, I've not seen how "serious" those promised sage boost are. But, from I've read, they are NOT of the same caliber as removing move after skill use. The same caliber boost would be cutting skill cool down, NOT mere extra damage. (And also, there's the remedy I already mentioned: increase range.) It amazes me how such fundamental difference can be missed!

Here's another thing: If you said those "boosts" are to compensate for automatic rooting of our char after using skill, then what's with the acknowledgement of "to make sage more fun to play with"? I found this to be neither in accordance with "the djinn's rule of equal trade" nor a "two steps forward, one step back". It's more like "one steps forward, two step back".

Try? My resilience doesn't give me any other choice. My patience on the other hand... Let's see which part of my bird brain will emerge the victor.

I do hope you don't take what I said personally. And, I do hope the Devs understand I rant because I still care. If I don't care anymore, or, if I lost my patience, I will simply leave, quietly, no fuzz, no buzz. Life's too short to spend in aggravation or debate.

Strike one: December patch madness.
Strike two: Ignoring my request to hide my chars from HoF.
Strike three: This? ....

Many people reached the 25 level... And after? No challenge, no fun, no joy... Zenithar-Ashra-Ennahar-Ashra-Zenithar... Go back and forth... The same one happens every day... Would not like start a new characters with the same adventure... We help the new players... GMs are few... It is uninspired... New patch does not help this... Where are the new zones, new missions, new classes, new items?

I saw many games drowning in unconcern and in boredom, because the developers said this: "So all I wanted to say is that let's give it a try..." But I say this: "I was an experimental rabbit too for a long time!"

This is my subjective judgement. Sorry if I offended anyone!

(Sorry for my english!)

Originally Posted by mrg8472 »Am I correct that after this patch the warrior's trample skill's root effect will be useless? I cannot move away after i hit the enemy with it in order to avoid their attack???!!!

After using a skill your turn will end. Because of this, you will have to rethink your combat strategies.

Not entirely useless: Keeps them from running away out of reach when my own movement has been reduced. And that Defense debuff can't be useless! In fact, i use the skill almost exclusively as a debuff/attack. You have a good point tho, that it has been a part of my strategy with some mobs to root and move one tile away in order to avoid a warrior-style close-range hit.

Originally Posted by Falcon Castagir »Many people reached the 25 level... And after? No challenge, no fun, no joy... Zenithar-Ashra-Ennahar-Ashra-Zenithar... Go back and forth... The same one happens every day... Would not like start a new characters with the same adventure... We help the new players... GMs are few... It is uninspired... New patch does not help this... Where are the new zones, new missions, new classes, new items?

I saw many games drowning in unconcern and in boredom, because the developers said this: "So all I wanted to say is that let's give it a try..." But I say this: "I was an experimental rabbit too for a long time!"

This is my subjective judgement. Sorry if I offended anyone!

(Sorry for my english!)

+1

Originally Posted by Reika »+1 to Irrational Abstract

I don't even see why do you want to speed up the combat, and on the other hand, how would this speed it up?

The combats in general are absolutly not that long that you have to change thing this radicly. Yes, there are a few really tough enemies, but with a good team and strategy they don't consume that much time. As a matter of facts, I like fighting, because it's fun. Who wants few minute long combats?
You even mention "you will have to rethink your combat strategies". I think, this will rather slow it down with all the rethinking.

Why do you want to ruin a perfectly functioning combat system?

i disagree. Battles have become agonizing. i've been playing solitaire on an old lappy while in battle, just to diffuse the boredom factor.
The end turn after attack is indeed worrisome. i'm thinking my warrior can adapt, but yeah, the sage especially is really gonna suffer. Guess that's why they added a bit of buff, but i sorta doubt it's enough to compensate the loss of move.

Originally Posted by ChihuahuaLover »I have to agree with you, IA. I don't understand the reasoning behind such a major change in a combat system that has been working fairly well. I find it to be quite worrying, that we will not be able to move after using a skill. Another example: the sage skill, Suppress Mind, will become next to useless, if you use it to reduce the target's movement, and then can't move out of the way!

I did not think that clicking "end turn," was all that bothersome, and if another player in a group fight forgot to move or hit end turn--well they could always be reminded in chat. I don't see why we all should be penalized and have to relearn how to fight, for such a trivial matter.

After suffering through many skill changes, and having to relearn how to fight each time, I am not looking forward to having to once again rethink my combat strategies for each and every fight. These changes are becoming rather tiresome at this point.

However, the fact that mobs will be losing their extra skill turns, will be a plus. This I found to be quite tedious, and many times I was totally bored, waiting for a large mob to get through all their extra turns, before it was finally my turn. And increasing the speed that our characters move on the map, will be especially welcome.

I think that fixing some of the many ongoing problems in the game, should be the priority here--instead of turning everything upside down, once again. I would like to see a resolution to the disconnect problems, the freezes and flash problems, that are happening more frequently.

And we desperately need new areas to explore, new quests and an increase in the level cap, sooner rather than later. I am sure I am not the only one who is getting bored with doing the same things over and over again.

yep, yep and yep.

By the time you guys get around to finally adding new quests and levels, i'll be unable to go there. Already too confused from the previous changes. Adapt you say? Well i find that i cannot, not so well as you hardcores expect me to. Still can't use about a third of skills i have 'cause i haven't managed to "adapt" to previous changes. You promised before that it will just take a little time and then i'll get used to it.
. . . NOT!
Hey, i'm a noob sort of player.
And now you demand that we totally learn a new sort of character: DD vs/ a Tank? May as well be a new class, in my case. This was the first game ever i tried that i could learn to play a warrior, largely because i fail at tank. Maybe i'm just a sore loser: hate dying in 3 outa 4 fights. Well, i'm here for entertainment and to relax, not to struggle and stress.

Might try a new character, if only gems or gemmed gear were transferable to a diff character in same email account. Maybe if i start at L one and learn it all from scratch, if i make a diff sort of build, then i might have a chance. i mean, why waste all those nice gems i still have on ama v? What a waste. But i'll be damned if i'll spend and spend and spend again for every character, in a game so unpredictable and changeable that i hafta re-start each few weeks.

OK, OK, i'll give it a try before whining any more. But point is, STOP making me re-learn the entire blamed game!

*Sorry friends, about making so many posts. there's so much to respond to and i can't adequately say all in a single entry.

I have to agree with these in 100%.
In real I don't really understand why were so important to change again the battle system.
After the last patch almost everybody seemed to be satisfied, or ok..sure the sage was still a little bit weak
but that wasn't a so-so big problem and now these patch coud compensate this,but I not really read any
post or not spoke any people in the chat whose were complain about the battle system.
Otherwise I think not just was me the only person whose mentioned in the last time that these serious
big changes're absolutely not really nice from the aspect the gameplay. Sometimes they coud be really
neccessary or if the game will be much-much better then sure...they coud be acceptable; but in these kind
of case like now I absolutely can't see the point of it. Even if these changes would be good about something
simply not worth to bother the players in these kind of changes with all of the patches.
Basically these changes just only coud implemented with a very-very good reason and somehow I don't feel
these "the fight will be faster" thing a too strong reason. And I think I'm not the only one in this.
(moreover as I wrote before the really long fights won't be much faster on these way.
so..I really don't know what shoud have to be faster with these system).

If the level cap would be raised then all of the fights which maybe so long now coud be faster a "little bit
And I'm sure the biggest part of the people would appreciate these kind of speed-up
much more than these newest fight system..

Originally Posted by ama v »

Originally Posted by Reika »+1 to Irrational Abstract

I don't even see why do you want to speed up the combat, and on the other hand, how would this speed it up?

The combats in general are absolutly not that long that you have to change thing this radicly. Yes, there are a few really tough enemies, but with a good team and strategy they don't consume that much time. As a matter of facts, I like fighting, because it's fun. Who wants few minute long combats?
You even mention "you will have to rethink your combat strategies". I think, this will rather slow it down with all the rethinking.

Why do you want to ruin a perfectly functioning combat system?

i disagree. Battles have become agonizing. i've been playing solitaire on an old lappy while in battle, just to diffuse the boredom factor.
The end turn after attack is indeed worrisome. i'm thinking my warrior can adapt, but yeah, the sage especially is really gonna suffer. Guess that's why they added a bit of buff, but i sorta doubt it's enough to compensate the loss of move.

A usual fight's absolutely not long...sure there're few exceptions...but as I mentioned before if you're not trying to do a "very big challenge"
then you can finish under few minutes.almost allways.

I too am concerned about the proposed changes, but as I've said many times before and will likely say many times again.... please just gve things a try before you start talking about how this, that or the other thing will "ruin" the game. For all we know, these changes are going to give the game much more depth and excitement. Yes, it may make things unbearable, but you wont know until you try it. So please, keep an open mind, give the changes an honest chance, and if you still hate it after a couple days, let the Tribe know.

side note to people on Wahid: based on personal experiences, even the smoothest of patch days can be harrowing for a GM. Please remember that 2 of our GMs just started the other day and that they do the job for free, out of love for the game and the community, so take it easy on them when you start screaming at them for things they did not decide nor cannot change. Thank you!

Rose I think now in these patch the smaller problem's the "ruin".
Just simply absolutely not these changes shoud have to be the priority in these stage.
And I think not just my oppinion if I have to say that were a little bit too much in the last few months
from these cardinal "fight system" changes...and if my memory's not so bad then not were all of them so perfect.

The fight system's basically pretty good in the moment as well...
I really don't understand why need to change on this patch after patch.
It really coud be pretty frustrating after a time..althought probably now these patch won't rally ruin the game totally
but still..I don't see the point of the changes. And I think not just me the only one..

Hehe, baptism by fire .

Your plea is misplaced, however. Only veterans visit the forum, from the looks of things. Most mid levels or low levels don't bother. I know I didn't back then.

There's a bright side, though. Since rogues and warriors won't be bothered too much by this (except a few with better than average insight), only a third of the population, sages, will be in uproar (except the new ones who are still learning the game, and even some clueless old ones).

Clearly, rogues and warriors who dare belittle a change such as this one will only expose themselves as having little to no clue how sage's battle works. Kinda like a n00b warr/rogue laughing at sage for running around PvPing instead of just standing still, mindlessly exchanging blows.

Still, I do pity the new GMs ...

@IA you may want to reread the changelog again, specifically the bit about the movement changes. Between the skill value changes, the movement increase and the fact that they are already range fighters, I think the class that will be least impacted is Sage. But again, I will not make any judgements based on only reading the changelog. I will reserve the bulk of my thoughts until after I give the patch a day or two to get used to the fact that things have changed (since all change must be bad!) and then another day or two to get used to what we've been given.

also @IA again, from personal experience, its the veteran players who scream at the GMs the most. We're more set in our ways, and we know the staff much better, and so feel much more comfy letting loose on them. That's why I make the futile attempt to beg people to take it easy on our new GMs.

@wolf Im not saying that I agree with how they're choosing to solve the problem. In fact, I've often raged about when, in order to fix one minor thing, three more major things have become broken. And about making huge sweeping changes when really just a minor tweak to things would have worked just as well if not better. And about messing with things that work fine when so many major issues go unfixed. All Im suggesting is that people go into the patch with an open mind. Give it a moment to settle in, give it a moment to actually see if there are possibly benefits to the changes, and then let it all out here in Forums

I fear!

I remember, saw too much one like this...

I played a promising new hungarian MMO, but (I guess) the developers adored own ideas. Game got new patch, and players said it: "Please, thinks through it because that and that... Maybe differently, so and so...". Developers (and other players): "You can but try!".
OK, at this point it was not crazy idea... We gave a chance... again... and again... and...
But we were not able to strike a compromise. Developers told: "Your thinking is badly! The patch and the game is good, what's more better! Better as WoW! This game not pink cloud! So, you be used to it or escape...".
As we say: clear speech. But too many players stopped the game and the server closed.

I tremble!

I love Nadirim and I hope so the past does not occur again...

(Sorry for my english!)

I think you have a point on the second paragraph there.

As for the first... I'm beginning to see how the such a huge blunder such as this be made. If the game tester or designer share that skewered view of how this update will be ok because sage is has mostly range skill, it's no wonder they approved this gaffe. Then again, if I recall, you admitted on occasions your preferred playing style, which is rogue, while admitting sage not being your fave. So, I forgive that.

As for waiting for the actual update to pass judgement, I can tell you again: I can easily run the simulation how the fundamental change like this work on my head. It's easy to test too now, by simply doing just that: shot and press end turn. I already know the first turn of battles are gonna be PITA for sages from now on. I already know the first turns of lamassus and rhinos strategies are shot. I already know some mid-movement strategy there by not only sage, but rogues and warriors as well, will be harder to pull off, extending fight length, not to mention lowering survivability. I wasn't just talking outta my arse.

Giving extra move for sage, DOESN'T make up for it. Even now, backing away 2 tiles on the first turn already makes most skill be out of range. Making it 3 doesn't solve the problem, it aggravate it. Do rogue and warrior minded players out there know this is how we do it, and I not asking if you know Montell Jordan's song. We shoot THEN back away, putting as much distance as possible to protect our frail self? Next patch, we will have to a) back away first, have limited skill to work with or b) use a skill anyway, and take the hp punishment because we are rooted. How fun...

And, while at it, how many %age of mobs have 2 movements, only have melee attack, for that 3 movement become a lifesafer? Both previous cases, sages BACK AWAY from mobs, almost in any case, in fact. That's just how sage works. This extra move worth both diddly, and its buddy, squat.

I might as well delete my Lamassu strategy guide thread, since that will be obsolete. Don't want to give false strategy. Don't want to give false hope to already-frustrated-player-seeking-guidance.

Now, about skill value changes:

Originally Posted by Irrational Abstract »...they are NOT of the same caliber as removing move after skill use. The same caliber boost would be cutting skill cool down, NOT mere extra damage. (And also, there's the remedy I already mentioned: increase range.) It amazes me how such fundamental difference can be missed!

Those "values" had better be massive to come close to a justification, which I doubt. Only for this, I reserve my judgement.

Be mindful, I already said some of the changes ARE good. I want to reiterate that. I want to reiterate my Kudos and appreciation on those.

@Falcon do not fear. 1) your English is lovely 2) this is the Tribe. They actually listen to player feedback and make changes based on it.

@IA you crack me up!! You remember correctly.. Im pitiful with sage. Regardless, this is why I suggest that people not pass judgement until actually seeing the patch. You think the sage is doomed, I think the sage will be made stronger. Others are prolly welcoming the changes for rogue, just as Im seeing a death sentence for them both in PvE and in PvP. My initial reaction is that only tanky warriors, who place themselves and then hold their position will see little change. But none of us know that until we actually play with the new system.

And before you go lamenting the death of your guide... guides come and guides go, even when there are not changes to combat systems like we are about to see. It can be sad, seeing as how much time and love you put into it, but that's just how things are sometimes. Just keep an open mind and be willing to see the possibilities that may exist with the new set up.

Good, I'm glad. It's my mission to be as pompous, obnoxious, annoying, pretentious as I can possibly be . Some psychoanalysers say some people use joke as the preferred self defense mechanism, while I use that .

Oh, speaking of guide, which according to you I love so damn much, really, most people don't care about it. Just as I do. I resent that you think of that. I guess my own fault using that as an example in the first place to drill a point .

I know you're trying to repeat the same message of don't knock it till you try it in hope of making them stick, just I am trying to convey that I've seen in my head. I guess some just can't run that kind of [sarcasm] advanced [/sarcasm] simulation, or even bother doing the simple try out I mentioned. So, I'm going to end this loopty loop or back and forth and call it agree to disagree. Like most people, I don't enjoy wasting my time. For me it's simple, just as how girls win the fights, by nagging their men to death, so he will give in , I too have that same calculation going in my head all the time: is this debate worth my time. So, here goes... "You're right, honey" .

Honestly I think about these pretty long conversation that IA never told that the game will be totally unplayable
just he mentioned the two "pretty-pretty hard" fight won't be really nice about the new patch..
So..the game will stay to be playable...and sure the players can adept the new fight system after every patch
but seriously somebody really coud explain now what woud be the sense
of these change because the game won't be faster significantly about these that's sure.